lamb chops: a cry for help
An urgent and pressing question has arisen. Think of the food you eat with mint sauce: say it out loud, maybe in a convenient sentence such as, "Look at the lamb chops there." Now think of the hairstyle. Say it out loud: "Look at the lamb chops there."
The question is, do both those sentences sound identical when you say them aloud? Thinking particularly about which of the words in "lamb chops" gets more stress - are they identical, or is there a slight difference in where you place the emphasis, depending on which meaning you intend?
If you happen to read this in the next day or so, please let me know what you think! Your intuitions will be invaluable. (This is state-of-the art linguistics methodology you know. Got a problem - ask the nearest native speaker.) (If you didn't know there was such a hairstyle as "lamb chops," by the way, I'm afraid you were clearly just born in the wrong decade. Sorry.)
The question is, do both those sentences sound identical when you say them aloud? Thinking particularly about which of the words in "lamb chops" gets more stress - are they identical, or is there a slight difference in where you place the emphasis, depending on which meaning you intend?
If you happen to read this in the next day or so, please let me know what you think! Your intuitions will be invaluable. (This is state-of-the art linguistics methodology you know. Got a problem - ask the nearest native speaker.) (If you didn't know there was such a hairstyle as "lamb chops," by the way, I'm afraid you were clearly just born in the wrong decade. Sorry.)
posted by cath at
11:59 am
11 Comments:
There is a hairstyle called "lamb chops"? Rachel didn't either, so which decade were we supposed to be born in.
My guess (never having heard or read of the hairstyle) is that the hairstyle comes from America, where the words "lamb chops" would be said with the emphasis on the first word, as if it were hyphenated.
A Dutch person would do the same with pairs of words that I as an Englishman would enunciate with the emphasis on the second word. Dutch people run words together (with a hyphen, if they're really desperate) as they're not allowed to use nouns as adjectives like we are.
Now, here's another guess - since the American language is so influenced by Germans, perhaps the Germans do the same and that is how the Americans came to be pronouncing pairs of words with different emphasis to English people, and, I presume, Scottish people, though I haven't analysed whether there is any difference in this case.
The above is speculation and not a scientific theory. Unlike Catherine I am not a linguist.
By
PeterinScotland, at 6:24 pm
Hmm how do you edit your comments on this thing? My first paragraph would have been better written if it had read:
There is a hairstyle called "lamb chops"? I didn't know that, and Rachel didn't know that either, so which decade were we supposed to be born in?
By
PeterinScotland, at 6:26 pm
Sorry don't think you can edit posts ... I think there's a preview option but once you've hit publish i think you're stuck unfortunately!
Thanks for the comment about saying lamb-chops-the-hairstyle with stress on the first word. Would you then also say that lamb-chops-the-food has stress on the *second* word (or roughly equal stress on both words) ?? I've had some folks saying they're both the same, but others think there's a difference.
The question arises because presumably the hairstyle usage is an extension of the food usage, so presumably they're originally the same word, so from that pov you'd expect them to sound identical. But if bits of the original meaning have been lost, then you might expect that there would be a shift in pronunciation.
PS - tbh I hadn't heard of lamb chops either until a few months ago. I'd just call it sideburns ... or maybe I'd know that other people would call it mutton chops ... like Elvis anyway, but that's not really my decade either is it! :) :P
By
cath, at 10:28 am
Well, after thinking about it I'd say that for the food one I put a very slight stress on 'lamb' and I say the hair one with equal stress on both. By the way, I like your hair-lamb-chops picture.
By
Anonymous, at 10:33 am
This isn't going to help much but John says the food-lamb-chops one with equal stress on both and hair-lamb-chops with emphasis on 'chops', while mum says the both the food- and the hair- lamb chops with stress on 'lamb'. Maybe you could just leave it out and save all the bother?!
By
Anonymous, at 2:39 pm
I think Anne's post there may be slightly misleading. John didn't put any emphasis on because she woke me up to ask me and I just grunted!
After extensive research (involving speaking to the computer screen), I have decided that lamb chops as I used to sport is said "lambchops" and the ones dad doesn't like eating are "lamb chops".
Making that clearer perhaps: lambchops (hair) is one word, with similar emphasis on both syllables and lamb chops (food) is two words, again with the same emphasis put on both the "lamb" and the "chops".
Forgive me if I ramble a touch.
By
Anonymous, at 4:32 pm
Yes I discovered the single word lambchop when I googled (go on, click the link) too.
And I still stick by my story of it being American, and the American usage being influenced by American English's Germanic heritage.
By
PeterinScotland, at 6:43 pm
I couldn't resist clicking the link. Abigail is sooo sweet! (Sorry Catherine that's very off-topic, hijack over :) Please tell us what you decide on in the end if you do)
By
Anonymous, at 10:26 pm
Well thanks to one and all - i'm considering citing you all as "informants". (That's another piece of good practice in the lx world btw :))
The idea is to find pairs of words/phrases that change their meaning depending on the stress pattern ... sticking with the food theme, you have the word "hotdog", but you also have the phrase "hot dog." IFFFFF "lamb-chops" behaved like this, you'd expect it to have the same stress pattern: "LAMB chops" when it's the idiomatic meaning (hairstyle) but "lamb CHOPS" or "LAMB CHOPS" when it's the transparent meaning (meat). The capitals aren't much use really for explaining but if you model it on "hot-dog" you should get a fair idea.
I'm sorely tempted by that suggestion to leave it out ... but there are only another twenty-ish words that behave like this, as far as i've found so far, so i reckon i'll have to keep scraping the barrel. If some folks haven't even heard of the word [like me till a few months ago], and if it is indeed american, then it might not be worth including ... but if i don't include it, we'll never know!! and the world would be a poorer place.
By
cath, at 12:49 am
Ps, cute baby pics are never off topic :-)
Peter - say hi to Rachel :-)
By
cath, at 12:50 am
can i just say i love the diagram! i cant see why you have poor wee people slaving *cough* away for you, drawing big wigs and wet suits, when you have such obvious talet yourself. but anyway i'd say (after similar research to dear john) that lamchops (as in Dr Fraser) has a stressed *lamb* and lamb chops (as in yucky tough stuff, go dad im with you on that one) is the opposite. All very subtle, and possibly personal too tho...
By
Anonymous, at 9:19 pm
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